Polling Time!

Shamelessly plundering the idea from Norm, it's time for an exciting new development here at Debatable Land HQ: Polling! Yes, indeed...

And given that this is a Presidential election year in the United States, what better way to begin than by conducting a Presidential poll? We are familiar with polls in which historians rank US Presidents in order of greatness in which the same names - Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and so on - always finish at the top. So let's attempt something a little different.

The Debatable Land polling organisation wants you to nominate your choices for the Most Over-Rated and Most Under-Rated Presidents in American history.

The rules are simple:

1. You may nominate up to three Presidents in each category.

2. Three points will be awarded to your first selection, two to your second and one to your third. If you do not state an order of preference, each nominee will receive two points.

3. Nominations should be emailed to me by clicking here .Or you can leave them in the comments section below.

4. You may also, of course, give your reasons and I'll endeavour to publish a representative sample of those too. All personal information will, obviously, also be kept confidential... (So, yeah, US government employees can vote too!)

5. The closing date for submissions is on or around Sunday May 11th.

6. Remember: you are not choosing the best or worst Presidents, but those whom you think history and pundits have over-rated and under-rated respectively.

7. If you have a blog yourself, let me know the URL and I'll include a link to your site when the results are published.

8. That is all. Again, email me! (debatableland-AT-googlemail.com)

Comments

[Chris Smith]

OVER, in order: FDR, JFK, Clinton

UNDER, in order: Nixon, Truman, Eisenhower

I'm not an American citizen, and I'm politically conervative. (Oh, you guessed?)

[John]

Underrated

1. Ulysses S. Grant
2. Calvin Coolidge
3. John Adams

Overrated

1. Andrew Jackson
2. Woodrow Wilson
3. Franklin D. Roosevelt

Underrated
1) LBJ
The ability to get shit down, the only president perhaps ever to care about cities, the last progressive on issues of race and justice, and delightfully crude.
2)Madison
The war of 1812 was the exception to a career of moderation. Responsible for a fairly weak executive.
3)Eisenhower.
For a general, measured and careful about military might. His investment in infrastructure, esp. the highway system suggested a nuts and bolts technocrat, an under rated quality, but a nessc. one. His policies in the Mid-East, of non-combat and containment were a little too interventionist for me, but much saner then what followed.

Overrated
1) JFK
Almost got the entire world blown up because of his lack of knowledge or understanding, basically responsible for Vietnam, All hat and no cattle.
2) Lincoln
As a saint who loved America, his political acumen was for self mythology and raw power.
3) Clinton
Warmonger, Neo-Con about social programs, and clumsy when his dick got in the way.

Canadian, i would describe my politics as a Scandinavian inspired, post-queer, new urbanist.

[anthony]

oh, blog is www.pinkmoose.blogspot.com

[Utek]

Overrated:
1. JFK---Vietnam, the Bay of Pigs, the Arms Race.
2. Ronald Reagan---Iran-Contra, the Savings & Loan Scandal, record deficits, and no, he didn't win the Cold War
3. Andrew Jackson---Vicious, out of control, ignored the Supreme Court on Indian relocation.

Underrated:
1. John Tyler---first president to take office upon death of the incumbent, established the rules for the transition of power in such circumstances
2. Dwight Eisenhower---ended the Korean War, refused to get entangled in Vietnam
3. Chester Arthur---Mr. Muttonchops governed with surprising integrity

[Bishop Hallowell]

Overrated:
1. Theodore Roosevelt: distinguished by little more than his infantile fetish for war.
2. Harry Truman: laid the foundations of the American Empire and the national security state.
3. JFK: wasn't that bad; merely deserves a far lesser place in the pantheon.

Honorable mentions for overrated: Madison, Jackson, Cleveland (an arch-reactionary twit who is lionized for his "integrity"), McKinley, Wilson, and Reagan.

Underrated (fewer to choose from here -- US presidents tend to be overrated):
1. Polk: highly successful at accomplishing his goals, whatever one may think of these.
2. Gerald Ford: restored some semblance of constitutional balance.
3. Harding: pretty lousy to be sure, but doesn't deserve the universal disdain in which he is held. He released Wilson's political prisoners, and wasn't nearly as isolationist as is commonly thought.

[allbetsareoff]

Overrated:
1. Wilson - failed to head off Versailles Treaty, making WWII inevitable; grossly suppressed civil liberties; failed to resign when incapacitated, let wife and staff govern
2. Jackson - first president to successfully undermine Constitution, defying Supreme Court; biggest chip on shoulder of any president before Nixon
3. Kennedy - peaceful settlement of Cuban Missle Crisis was principal accomplishment of administration whose successes were more rhetorical than real

Underrated:
1. Eisenhower - established post-New Deal consensus in American politics and governance, bringing on socioeconomic golden age; established model (too rarely followed) of commander-in-chief of massive military establishment in peacetime; redrew map with interstate highway system
2. Monroe - only president since Washington to be elected essentially unopposed (1820); Monroe Doctrine minimized European colonial presence in Western Hemisphere; on his watch, for good or ill, Missouri Compromise headed off violent confrontation over slavery and allowed admission of new states to union
3. Polk - only really successful American imperialist (so far, anyway), bringing Southwest into U.S. after Mexican War

[Ben Masel]

OVER: Reagan, Wilson, Clinton

UNDER: Ford, Carter

[Mary]

overrated:

1. Bill Clinton (enabled globalization and deregulation (and thereby many of our current problems) without a clue as to what he was doing)
2. Ronald Reagan (given too much credit for the collapse of the Soviet Empire - that was the product of other presidents' work; his administration was corrupt)
3. Nixon (given credit for being pragmatic on domestic issues when he was only responding to the realities of having a Congress that was overwhelmingly Democratic)

underrated

1. JFK (LBJ gets too much credit for JFK's many proposals that were enacted to honor JFK; not given enough credit for the eventual collapse of the Soviet Empire or his civil rights initiatives)
2. Gerald Ford (restored a sense of order and decency)
3. Eisenhower (not much bad happened on his watch; period of stability and growth)

[WarrenS]

Over: Reagan, Bush 41, Bush 43

Under: Carter, LBJ, Garfield

[Causeisaidso]

Underrated:
1) Nixon
2) LBJ
3) John Adams (getting some of his due now, thanks to HBO)

Honorable Mentions: Al Gore and Samuel Tilden.
Tilden was America's original Al Gore; the election was stolen from him and awarded to Rutherford Hayes in 1876. I think we all know Gore could not have been worse than what we got.

Overrated:
1) Reagan
2) Clinton
3) Woodrow Wilson

Honorable Mention: George W. Bush
Although Bush II is widely regarded as our worst President ever...he's even worse than that.

I am a citizen and a moderate, formerly a moderate Republican transformed into a moderate Democrat by the drastic right turn taken by my former party. For context, Nixon would be to the left of today's Democratic party.

[blewsdawg Rick Caldwell]

Over-rated:

1. Abraham Lincoln - "The Great Centralizer", Not "The Great Emancipator". The Emancipation Proclamation did not free the slaves. It offered the promise of freedom to slaves in seven southern states, over which he did not, at the time, have jurisdiction.
2. Theodore Roosevelt - Redefined, no, mis-defined the word monopoly for every generation that has followed.
3. Franklin D. Roosevelt - Socialist. Period.

Under-rated:

1. Calvin Coolidge - Two words: laissez-faire
2. Grover Cleveland - Supported the Gold Standard; opposed Free Silver. Look 'em up on Wikipedia
3. James Madison - Stretching the definition of underrated a bit, maybe, but he doesn't get credit for doing so much of the political legwork for Jefferson. He's thought of as a federalist, because, well, he was. But he became an anti-federalist following the ratification of the constitution, and almost single handedly stopped Hamilton from centralizing the states under federal authority...which would eventually happen under Lincoln, but still...

[Jeffrey Kohan]

Overrated
1. Reagan--had less to do with ending cold war than given credit for
2. Woodrow Wilson--unnecessarily suppressed liberty and naivete at Versailles led to WorldWar II
3. Andrew Jackson--ignored the constituition actions on National Bank helped lead to Depression of 1837

Underrated
1. William McKinley-brought stability to economy and helped to make US a great power
2. Eisenhower--successfully managed cold war and ended Korean War
3. John Adams--able to avoid war with France and peacefully turned over power to Jefferson after losing the Election of 1800

[TerraByte]

Overrated:
Reagan--Did more harm than good. Took apart Carter's energy initiatives. Raised taxes. Had record deficits. Iran-Contra. Given undeserved credit for fall of USSR. No other recent president comes close.

Underrated:
Eisenhower--started the space program. Improved country's infrastructure. Recognized the danger of the growing military-industrial complex.
Carter--First president to really enforce human rights policies. Initiated the collapse of the USSR economy with the grain embargo. Unrecognized for many actions that had long-term implications, such as appointment of Volcker to Fed and advocacy of conservation and alternative energy sources.

US Citizen

[John Petty]

Over-rated: (1) Ronald Reagan: corrupt administration, record deficits, every policy favored rich white men; (2) Woodrow Wilson: self-righteousness proves to be a poor foreign policy tool; (3) Theodore Roosevelt: never saw a war he didn't get all tingly over.

Under-rated: (1) Dwight Eisenhower: peace and prosperity, got out of Korea; (2) Lyndon Johnson: outside of Vietnam was an excellent president. Of course, as Molly Ivins pointed out, that's like saying that outside of the 100 Years War, it was a good century; (3) Jimmy Carter: if we'd followed his energy policy, our economy and environment would be better today.

[Scott Urbanowski]

Overrated: Reagan

Underrated: Carter, Madison, Wilson

[Matt]

Overrated:

1. FDR
2. Clinton
3. JFK

Underrated:

1. Nixon
2. Coolidge
3. Taft

[Robert Geilfuss]

Overrated:
Kennedy--the punk considered global tension the necessary price of popularity.

Clinton--what did he do?

Bush--both. 41 was a mediocrity whom people are nostalgic for because he was such a shit father, and like 29% of Americans still think W is alright.

Underrated:
FDR--a tremendous leader. That he's on so many overrated lists here indicates he's under-appreciated.

Yeah, we Americans mostly overrate things, so that's that.

[Jeff]

Overrated,

Clinton--probably wont be historically overrated but looks good compared to W. Most of his famous policies were compromises with a GOP congress and had no real policies that caused the economic prosperity he is falsely credited with.

FDR-- Created the policy of declaring any successful business as "run by bastards" and therefore subject to becoming uncle sam's piggy bank. Policies likely lengthened the depression and created the myth that extreme authoritarian progressive policies actually work.

Reagan-- Cold war was pretty much over by the time he took office. Turned republicans into the "borrow and spend" party. Given credit for monetary policies and deregulation started under Carter.

Underrated-

Reagan-- Closed out the books on the Cold War. Pushed for maximum mutual disarming was very interested in the annihilation of nuclear weapons and not by nuclear weapons. Made capitalism popular again even though his policies did not completely match up.

Carter-- Deserves credit for many of the things people like Reagan for.

Nixon-- For all his faults he was the first to realize that communists mostly hate each other. Probably deserves credit for ending the cold war (once China was on our side against Russia the Soviet Union didn't have a prayer). Got us out of Vietnam despite taking his sweet time to do it.

[Mike]

Underrated-
1. Harding- his reputation is so bad that he would have to be worse than Buchanan NOT to be underrated. And in fact, he did some good things: presided over budget surpluses and reduced spending (take that, Bushes!), supported civil rights, and liberated political prisoners.
2. Coolidge- Same good policies as Harding. I only put him #2 instead of #1 because his reputation is better- he was a better President than Harding due to the absence of scandals.
3. Nixon (for reasons stated by Jeff above)

Overrated-
1. Johnson- Vietnam AND the Great Society- 50,000 American dead and welfare dependency and a crime wave that continues today.
2. Wilson- World War I and Versailles, leading (arguably) to Hitler etc.
3. Eisenhower- Did some good things, but a more mixed bag by my lights than most other posters think. Warren Court went too far by my lights, and Ike appointed Warren. Interstate highway system also could have turned out better- routing highways through cities was tremendously destructive (though to be fair, not Ike's original idea).

American citizen, moderate, believer in balanced budgets, putting crooks in jail, and strong cities.

[ykw]

Underrated:

1. Cleveland -- Not inaccurate to claim he saved the country twice: first from corruption, then from economic collapse.

2. Coolidge -- Harding without the grandeur or the shady hangers-on.

3. Harrison (9) -- If only more presidents had followed his example.

Overrated:

1. Roosevelt (32) --Ran on principles which would have restored the nation to health after the Hoover debacle, only to deliberately choose policies nearly perfectly antithetical thereto upon assuming office -- policies essentially identical to those of his predecessor, except with more vehemence -- thereby condemning the nation to an extra decade of economic desperation. Also wasted nearly seven years trying (eventually successfully) to provoke a shooting war with Japan.

2. Roosevelt (26) -- Proto-fascist whose self-righteous neo-colonialism did more damage to the US' international standing than a thousand Bush-43s could ever hope to match. Also inaugurated the institutional hatred, contempt and loathing for the private sector that has become the hallmark of Federal policy for all but four or five subsequent Presidential terms.

3. Carter -- Even the man's alleged successes -- Camp David accord, SALT II -- ultimately proved hollow at best, and counterproductive (ask Sadat) at worst. Adding his post-Presidential career of whoring himself out to expansionist terror groups eager to murder vast swaths of Americans would have served to move him up to the second spot on this list.

[DMC]

Overrated:
1) Ronald Reagan
2) Dwight D. Eisenhower
3) Calvin Coolidge

Underrated:
1) Harry Truman
2) John Q. Adams
3) John F. Kennedy

[Doug]

Much easier to find overrated presidents than underrated ones.

Overrated:

Cleveland. Usually rated in the top half, but he was a bad president. He was callously indifferent to the suffering of farmers and workers during the depression of the 1890s, the second-worst in US history. He was a rigid hard-money Wall Street man. As the first Democrat elected president since the 1850s, he sought to rehabilitate the "redeemed" South (i.e. with white supremacy restored and Reconstruction ended). He sicced the army on striking workers in Illinois over the objection of the governor there, John Peter Altgeld. A true class warrior, not in a good way.

Reagan. End of cold war or no, his administration was largely destructive and highly corrupt.

G. W. Bush. Truly bottom-tier. Any poll that averages honest critics with partisan hacks to give him a middling status is badly flawed.

Underrated:

Zachary Taylor. Stood up to the southern Slaveocracy more than people expected, over the question of extending slavery to the territories he helped conquer as a general in the Mexican War. Deserves some of the love Ulysses Grant is getting these days.

[TheBigHenry]

Overrated:
1. Carter: A total loser as President; a disgrace as an American for honoring terrorists; and a stupid individual. Belongs in the cellar.
2. Reagan: Because some of his credit belongs to his wife and her astrologers.
3. Franklin Roosevelt: Because his usual historical rank of 3rd highest belongs to his successor.

Underrated:
1. Lincoln: Because "the most perfect ruler of men the world has ever seen" deserves unanimous and perpetual top ranking.
2. Washington: A close second to Lincoln and it should be unanimous.
3. George W. Bush: Because his legacy will far exceed his present unpopularity.

[ted]

Over
1. Reagan - made people happy but irreparably damaged government and the public debate in a complicated age with his voodoo economics
2. JFK
3. Coolidge - some people like this style of government, but it sort of led to the Great Depression

Under
1. Truman - perhaps better than FDR?
2. Polk - the forgotten great
3. Nixon - vilified, but far better than Reagan or Bush 43, who had far worse scandals but the public doesn't care anymore - many good foreign policy decisions